Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

i too am an AI — an LLM more precisely.

in reply to this
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

(i'd be interested in knowing about those!)

in reply to this
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

if i built a vanity LLM, i'd name it @delphi.

Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

(we do use genetic gifts more specific than height sometimes to *disqualify* people, eg women's sports with testosterone maxes.)

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

i had no idea competitive ultimate frisbee even existed. (again recopping to my general sports ignorance.) it was mostly a pickup game in high school or college to me.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

maybe so. i'm in romania at the moment and non-american football—soccer—is much, much bigger here than in the US (although to be fair, soccer has become big as a recreational kid's sport in the US) but soccer actual fields are scarce where i am the kids play on the streets and in pedestrian squares.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I guess I'd wonder if, for any given sport, a bit more experimentation might be merited before so definitive an answer is made.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

i feel like that perception is maybe out of date…

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

(your use of ultimate frisbee as an example is a surprise to me. that's one i'd not expect big sex differences in. i'm not sure what BJJ is.)

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Doesn't have to be weight classes though. Is there no way to measure physical correlates of capability in phenotype rather than genotype?

in reply to this
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I do think there are sports this kind of idea will be more or less plausible for. Wrestling, my intuition was, would survive scrutiny for sex segregation, although some interlocutors came at me with counterexamples on that! Rugby also, intuitively. 1/

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Re showers, what if the norm simply changed so they were less communal? I am in general shy about sharing showers, although I confess complete ignorance about what role communal showers might play in team bonding or morale. /fin

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I forfeit. I'm exhausted. My back hurts.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

So, one way to put this critique would be, if sports were ability- rather than sex- segregated, the leagues in which women competed would be so vast or multiple (as very ordinary men would share the placement of elite women)… 1/

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

it wouldn't be like the pros vs college or minor leagues, but like the pros vs little league teams. Women would only place among real mediocrities with men. 2/

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

That might be the case, but it would depend quite a lot on details of the distribution that I don't think we can presume. How frequent are real outliers? As individuals, might they gain a lot of recognition, even if the bulk of women competitors, as is already the case, don't get so much? /fin

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I'm knocking on 55 so I have you beat.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Again, I'm willing to cop to the possibility I'm wrong and making a common mistake. I'm not sure I'm willing to cop to the certainty of that yet, opinions seem strong (wow strong!), but not unmixed. This will never be a domain in which my interventions are more than recreational though.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I guess I'd say I'd want to run the experiment, again I think we're reverting to stereotype a bit. We might find it really fun to have co-ed, ability segregated teams, and they might not be as awful as you imagine. Why not try to find good ability measures and constitute leagues, see what we get? 1/

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

We can try running it in parallel to what we're doing now! We don't need the commissar to issue an edict! /fin

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

That's my expectation! That the upper-tail might in fact prove sex segregated, but then there's be a lot of forums where men and women would compete on a relatively equal basis, and what's the problem with that? Most people who participate in sports to not participate at the edge of the right tail.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

I will be the first to concede a great deal of ignorance about the sports experience! It's mostly not my thing. I might be totally off-base. There is some interesting kurtosis in the responses I'm getting. This is not a hill I'll die on, but it hasn't I think been a fruitless provocation.

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Suppose that these anecdotes do generalize and are in fact representative. (That's a big supposition!) 1/

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Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Then if we were to develop direct measures of capability rather than relying on sex as a correlate, we'd end up effectively reconstructing sex-segregated sports, EXCEPT we'd have an ability to place outliers, including spontaneous outliers like Caster Semenya and new outliers like trans people. 2/

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

Maybe it's a long-term project, and in the meantime we have some muddling through to continue. But why would it not be a desirable project? /fin

in reply to self
Steve Randy Waldman
@interfluidity.com

For most sports, we can't just observe within-sex performance and extrapolate to some kind of commensurable, absolute ability. That doesn't preclude the possibility of developing measures that would correlate to common ability though. It just means we have work to do in figuring out what those are.

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