@mike_kraft today, sure. but 20 years ago Palestinian kids were blowing up buses+cafes after a land for peace proposal that wasn't good enough.
there was history before 7-oct, sure. it didn't come from nowhere. there was history before Israeli apartheid too. it didn't come from nowhere.
"both sides" is in fact the only sane take on Israel/Palestine. one abuser—Israel—currently holds the knife, and is the one that needs to be restrained now. when the other side has the knife it's also no good.
@Alon @BenRossTransit @djc obviously people targeting epithets directly at people walking by is more visceral than a Charles Murray talk.
but (referring back to the #TimothyBurke piece that inspired the thread), the vast majority of the protest is not that at all, but might still be uncomfortable, disturbing, hurtful to people simply by virtue of its content. and that should be tolerated, even though i agree in practice there have been less-than-uniform standards of that sort of toleration.
@BenRossTransit @djc That's the kind of thing I thought you were talking about! And that's where we have a dispute about prevalence.
Media and social media pluck conflict from the tails of social phenomena, because that's where the engaging stories are. Ridiculously horrible slogans definitely are shouted, and sometimes in harassing ways at Jewish students. There are also purposeful provocateurs on the pro-Israel side.
But I think these both are a very small part of the overall activity.
@djc @BenRossTransit i can assure you both can make Jewish kids with strong identification and attachment to Israel feel pretty horrible! and also that Jewish kids (and adults) do not universally agree on either question. (a difficult thing in the US Jewish community now is that a large group who previously had squish mixed feelings about zionism are becoming polarized towards outright antizionism, which might make this passover worse than any proverbial thanksgiving.)
@djc @BenRossTransit directions in which harassment / hostile environment should be more or less expansively defined have become battlegrounds of social contestation, as matters of mere status and prestige, and more cynically in office politics and career competition. i think this is a mistake we should try to reverse by narrowing application of these ideas.
@BenRossTransit @djc (i think we'd probably disagree on what counts at "racist invective" under these circumstances. as do different factions among Jewish students on campus.)
@BenRossTransit @djc (i think it a true point that, for example, many campuses would find ways not to have Charles Murray come on campus to offer, however politely, views about likely genetic group differences in IQ. even politely expressed arguments that Israel is conducting a genocide might make some Jewish students feel discomfort as real as some Black students encountering Murray. my view would be both conversations have to be tolerated regardless. i agree that has not been the practice.)
@djc @BenRossTransit i interpreted @BenRossTransit as making a behavioral claim, that students are engaging in behavior unnecessary to merely expressing legitimate views, that constitutes harassment. that's a different question than whether there are views almost any direct, in-person expression of which might constitute a "microaggression" or make someone feel "unsafe". if the second, there need be no student misbehavior at all. essential contours of the controversy create a distinction.
@davenicolette@mastodon.social @marick we don't know where the regression will stop, but i think it overstated to say we've regressed almost that far back. public accommodations are not segregated. ugly suppression laws trim the margins, and given how tight elections are margins matter, but the vast majority of black citizens who wish to vote succeed. black citizens are not routinely beaten for making eye contact or being insufficiently deferential to whites. so far, i'd say it's 5 steps forward 2 steps back.
@marick @davenicolette@mastodon.social jinx.
@marick @davenicolette@mastodon.social i agree. i think what makes the point contestable is at the moment it's unclear how much those somewhat-successes might backslide. through the 1990s and early 2000s, we knew the direction of the arc of history but now it seems liable to epicycles.
@davenicolette@mastodon.social @marick we were able to constrain Jim Crow a bit, to shackle at least somewhat the worst elements of chattel illiberalism. i think often we can *hope* for more. we can create escapes for individuals that might eventually serve as useful feedback. but that is about as much as we can *expect* or *insist upon*, especially outside of our own borders.
(we did send troops to the US South, and i'd not write the enterprise off as complete failure, but complete success it was not either.)
@davenicolette@mastodon.social @marick with respect to the US South, though, I'd support a lot more insisting than outside the US. for example, we should absolutely end gerrymandering have have voting practices reviewable by the Federal government, as we did until the Roberts court decided equality was already at hand, so there was no need.
"Fittingly, this takes place in Judea…" #KevinDrum https://jabberwocking.com/what-do-i-mean-there-are-no-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/
@BenRossTransit i'd contest the characterization "big part", though all my information is journalistic and anecdotal, as i suspect is yours (even if first-hand it might not be representative), so we'll not have any grounds to settle the dispute. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/opinion/columbia-student-protests-israel.html
the moral high ground is the only territory whose defense is sustainable.
“To even admit you are acting out of a perception of potential liability is thought in some circles to create a risk of liability. But this thinking in some cases creates enormous risk because the people who are articulating risk only think along one line of vulnerability, the one they understand—or because their logic is easily bent towards a pre-determined conclusion by ideologues prepared to manipulate it.” #TimothyBurke https://timothyburke.substack.com/p/academia-on-the-inside
tired: what do you do for a living?
wired: what’s your grift?
@akkartik It’s a classic for sure!
[new draft post] Out of the spotlight https://drafts.interfluidity.com/2024/04/27/out-of-the-spotlight/index.html
@akkartik my automatic notification engine waits for it to be stable an hour! i last edited like 5 mins ago, and don't anticipate another read through, so... (thank you for your enthusiasm!)
@akkartik (i'm a big liar. i've reset the clock with a one-word change.)
i'm sorry i know this is meant in earnest and offensive but i just find it very funny.
from #RichardHanania https://www.richardhanania.com/p/too-gay-to-rebel
Text: there hasn’t been much attention focused on what it means for our elites to become so overwhelmingly gay. This is because we are in the earliest stages of this transformation, as LGBT identity among youth didn’t begin to skyrocket until the last decade or so. Thus, there hasn’t been enough time for this trend to remake society, though today’s college students are part of the gayest generation we have ever seen.
